.
Allen: Do you remember a man named Richard Alpert?
Prabhupada: No.
Allen: He used to work with Timothy Leary in Harvard many years ago. Then he worked in India and found a teacher and is now a disciple of Hanumanji, a devotee of Hanuman. We were talking about maya [illusion] and the present condition of America and he said that his teacher in India told him that LSD was a Christ of the Kali-Yuga [the current age, 'Age of Quarrel'] for Westerners in that as the Kali-Yuga got thicker and thicker that also salvation would have to be easier and easier and --
Prabhupada: That is a very nice testament, that in the Kali-Yuga salvation is very easier. That is the version of Srimad-Bhagavatam [a Vedic text] also. But that process is this kirtan, not LSD.
.
Allen: Well, the reasoning there was that for those who would only accept salvation in purely material form, in chemical form finally, completely material form, Krishna had the humor to emerge as a pill.
Prabhupada: The thing is that when it is material form, then where is the salvation? It is illusion.
Allen: The subjective affect is to cut out attachment. During the --
Prabhupada: If you have attachment for something material, then where is this cutting attachment? LSD is a material chemical. So if you have to take shelter of LSD, then you take help from matter. So how are you free from matter?
Allen: The subjective experience is that while in the state of intoxication of LSD, you realize that LSD is a material pill, and that it does not really matter.
Prabhupada: That is risky. That is risky.
Allen: So, if LSD is a material attachment, which it is, I think, then is not the sound, the sabda [sound vibration], also a material attachment?
Prabhupada: No. Sabda is spiritual. Originally, just like in Bible it is said, "Let there be creation." This is sound. This is spiritual sound. Creation was not there. The sound produced the creation. Therefore sound is originally spiritual. And from sound, sky developed, from sky air developed, from air fire developed, from fire water developed, from water land developed.
.
Allen: Sound is the first element?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Allen: What was the first sound, traditionally?
Prabhupada: The Vedas say OM. So, at least we can understand from your Bible that God said, "Let there be creation," so this is sound, and there is creation. God and His sound are nondifferent ... Absolute. I say, "Mr. Ginsberg." This sound and you are a little different. But God is not different from His energy. Sakti saktimatorabheda. Shakti [energy] and shaktimat [the energetic] are nondifferent. Just like fire and heat. They are nondifferent, but heat is not fire. You cannot differentiate heat from fire or fire from heat. But fire is not heat.
.
 Chanting in a group, definition of kirtan! Soulful peeps from NYC, photo by William Covintree. |
Prabhupada: Yes, is not different from Krishna.
Allen: Under all circumstances?
Prabhupada: All circumstances, yes. But it is a question of my appreciation, of my realization. That depends on my purity. Otherwise this Krishna sound and Krishna are nondifferent. Therefore, if we vibrate the sound Krishna, then immediately we are in contact with Krishna, and Krishna is pure spirit and immediately I become spiritualized, just like if you touch electricity, immediately you are electrified. And the more you become electrified, the more you become Krishnized. So when you are fully Krishnized, then you are on the Krishna platform. Tvaktadeham punarjanma naiti mameti kaunteya. Then when you are fully Krishnized, you no more come back to this material existence. You remain with Krishna. The impersonalists say "merging." That is less intelligent. Merging does not mean losing individuality. Just like a green bird enters a green tree. It appears to be merging, but the bird has not lost his individuality. There is still individuality.